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Infrared vs Red Spider vs Infra-Red-Spider


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This has been bugging me for a while. There clearly is a time when Infrared stopped putting out releases with "INFRAxxx" cat# format. However, it's not clear to me if the new cat#'s reflect a continuation of Infrared under a new system, or a disbanding of Infrared in favor of a new label that references Infrared with the new label name, yet is not the same as Infrared (kind of like how "Ganja" relates to "Ganja-Tek" or "Liq-Weed Ganja" yet is distinct from those other labels).


Currently rolldabeats just lists the recent cat # shifts as all corresponding to the Infrared label, so they don't get their own label heading but just list under the last infrared release. So, "Red Spider" or "Infra-Red-Spider" all kind of get lumped together along with the old infrared back catalogue, just with a different cat# style. However, "Black Widow" is treated as a separate label (as it should: the artists are basically the same group of people, but it's a distinct project/related-label with its own logo, cat# system, series of releases, etc).


It appears like "Red Spider" was meant to be a kind of complement to "Black Widow". Maybe "Red Spider" was weighted towards Jmajik/Infrared's influence, and "Black Widow" was more weighted to Wickaman's influence? I don't know. In any case "Red Spider" was short lived, and the cat#'s are a headache. There is IRED001 and IRED002, and also REDSPIDER001. From this period in the label (or shift to sublabels?) I only have a promo of IRED002, and I can tell you from the runout etching that the cat# is "RED002" and not "IRED002". So maybe someone can look at their copy of "IRED001" and tell me if that cat# is correct, for to be consistent with RED002 maybe that should be changed to RED001. After all these cat#'s are sorted, I think a legitimate question is which of these (at least three) possibilities is the correct one


a) Everything, from the Infrared stuff to the stuff that plays around with something having to do with "Red Spider" as a catalog # and name, even to the recent "Infra-Red-Spider" releases, are all part of the Infrared label.


b) The Infrared stuff is distinct from the "Red Spider" stuff and the "Infra-Red-Spider" stuff, where the latter two should be lumped together as a new label with the old label disbanding (I suppose the best analogy here, rather than the existence of "Ganja" alongside "Ganja-Tek", is something like the existence of the label "Chrome" until it goes under,

never releases as "Chrome" again, and becomes the distinct label "Position Chrome".


c) The Infrared stuff, the Red Spider Stuff, and the Infra-Red-Spider stuff are all three distinct labels that are different from each other.


What makes it even more complicated is if we move on in the later releases in this catalog. Take for example the picture disc with "Crazy World" on one side and "Fiddler's Elbow" on the other side. RDB currently lists this release as I-REDSPIDER001. Now I do have a picture disc ( a picture disc isn't mentioned in the database - does a black vinyl AND pic disc version -kind of like with breakbeat kaos releases- exist? I don't know) where the tracks clearly are "Crazy World" on one side and "Fiddler's Elbow" on the other side. But check this out:

- the printed image on the picture disc lists the cat# as REDSPIDER001. (the same cat# that RDB gives for this release).

- the side with "Crazy World" has this cat# etched "REDSPIDER001" with the notes "BLACK SIDE". (note that the artist credits are given in the order of "Wickaman and J Majik".

- the side with "Fiddler's Elbow" has this cat# 3tched "REDSPIDER001" with the notes "RED SIDE". (note that the artist credits are given in the order of "J Majik & Wickaman".

- both sides of the picture disc bear a small logo of the original Infrared logo, with the Black Widow logo underneath it.


I don't even know where to begin sorting this mess out. I don't have the release that RDB currently lists in the database with the REDSPIDER001 catalog #. Does it really have that cat#, or something else? Did "I-REDSPIDER001" get assigned by rdb to avoid an overlap of two releases with the same cat#? What are the rest of the releases around that time like - do they continue with the "REDSPIDERxxx" catalog convention, or do they do something else (like "I-REDSPIDERxxx"?)

Maybe this crazy world release is meant to be kind of a split-release between Infrared and Black Widow records (or is it Red Spider and Black Widow records?), with one label's producer dominant on each side (hence the "Black" vs the "Red" side?) .


In any case it is a mess, I don't own enough releases from around this time of different/transitional cat#'s to notice actual patterns or make a judgment. I tried looking on the old Infrared website for guidance, but it seems to be down. Clearly all the labels are related, and they use motifs or metaphors from each other (arachnids for "Spider" or "Widow", colors for "Red" and "Black", and then the "Infra" kind of floats about in a way where I'm not exactly sure how it is around or where it ended). Clearly there are even some catalog # errors in the current listings for at least a couple of releases. However, what the cat#'s should be changed to, and for what releases, is unclear to me. It is also unclear to me whether this should all be treated as a case of variations on "Infrared" (that doesn't seem entirely consistent, since "Black Widow Records" was given its own distinct label category), or if there are in fact one or more distinct labels in addition to infrared ("Red Spider"? ..."Infra-Red-Spider"...a split release with "Red Spider" and "Black Widow"?)


Sorry I can't be of more help, this has been bugging me for a long time. I don't know the solution, but I do know that something about the way RDB currently makes it all more or less a part of infrared doesn't seem right.

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Sorry but it was late last night when I made that post - I could have organized and typed it more clearly.


Nevertheless, I think it's clear enough - or am I completely mad? Basically my post was indicating


1) that there are at least two releases that probably have the incorrect catalog #, and that there is at least one picture disc not listed in the database


2) that it's possible that all this infra-red-spider, red spider, etc stuff should be listed as distinct labels


3) that no matter what, it is a confusing mess because jmajik and wickaman seem to readily crossreference these various label/sublabel names and logos, and I don't think they had a clear catalog# system in mind.

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I just want to know - do people think I'm raising a legitimate concern here? is there an "issue" about whether this should be split into sublabels?



or am I insane and overthinking this database entry stuff, and it is fine as it is (all listed under infrared)?

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I've been torn over this while entering these releases into the database... there seems to have been a new addition to the "family" of late -- infrared spectrum, or just spectrum (not sure!), just to add to the confusion. Is there a web presence for infrared anymore that might clarify the issue?
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I think it's quite simple, it's a shared label.


Infrared Vs Black Widow


Just like Metro vs Viper.


When we have the capabilitity to list releases that link to two different labels (like Discogs does) things like this will make much more sense.


Alternatively just list Red Spider as a seperate label, I've got one release and from the artwork it may as well be a seperate label, it certainly has its own distinct branding.

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